Roger, The saying is flawed. I grew up in the good times of the 1960s, but I started working as a paperboy at 13. I was an altar boy, too. Getting up before dawn 7 days a week and pedaling my bike on my paper route, then going to school and serving Mass, made me tough. Good times are not necessarily the maker of weak men.
I was a weekend pump monkey selling motorcycle tires during the week, and serving 5 masses every Sunday as an altar boy. Then there was bucking hay, feeding chickens, herding cows, while being class president and editor in chief of the newspaper. I was exhausted after high school, so I backpacked around the world to relax. :0 Did I mention walking 20 miles to school uphill both ways? And all we had to eat was ROCKS!
Rufus, LOL at "pump monkey". Hard to believe you were class president. You were a people person? Haha. I bucked hay once in South Dakota. A farmer hired my friend Mark and I to help him load the hay bales onto a flat bed truck. Jayzus, those bales are heavy! I can still see Mark in his jeans, flannel shirt, and long hair in a ponytail, lift a bale up to his waist. A rattlesnake stuck its head out of the bale and was ready to strike Mark right in the balls. Mark feinted dead away.
The farmer came over and cut the head off of the snake with a machete. He threw water on Mark's face and told us to get back to work.
I didn't ask for greatness, it was thrust upon me. I am a misanthrope who's learned to cope. I think I was elected because I was the only redhead in a hundred mile radius, and I knew Roger's Rules of Order.
Bucking coastal bermuda bales isn't bad, but the straw! I had micro scratches up to my arm pits that burned for days after. I also had to mow the back 40 (literally). After four hours of that, I was burned to a crisp and had thousands of cockle burrs, the big fat ones, from the back of my head to my belt. But rattlers? Noever had one come out of a bale at me, but did get skunked once. You ain't lived until you've taken a tomato juice bath and the yellow stains won't go away for a month.
Rufus, Oh, Lord, I'd forgotten the straw getting everywhere. My Dad worked at a veterinarian's office when he was a teenager in Minneapolis. Dad had a pet skunk named Oscar. Dad had removed the skunk's stink glands. Dad would drive around Richfield with that skunk on the front seat. The skunk would see a dog in the car next door and do his dance and raise his tail at the dog. The dog went ape shit in the next car. Dad laughed at that. He had the same sense of humor I have.
We have a skunk that comes by our house every month or so to eat the oranges in our tree. He's a friendly guy, but he does stink and you know when he's around.
Look at society in general....are you saying the people of today are no different than in the 1960s? I beg to differ,,,we are a weak people who are not prepared for what is coming. Pax
Roger, I only know myself. "Society in general" is a phrase I avoid. I've had young men in our house installing and maintaining HVAC, electrical, and plumbing systems. They know what they are doing.
Oh, Western folks, particularly men, are softer and less skilled in general life hacks - basic car maintenance, home repairs, carpentry, general wiring, etc. They can play the snot out of video games, but are clueless about tool use. In fact, I know very few "men" anymore who have a basic set of tools and know how to use them. Useless as black mold.
Regarding: "In the first round of Marxist numbnuttery, the Boomers threw out the old wisdom, thinking they could create a paradise of indulgence."
Once again, "boomers" are being blamed for changes that were initiated by their elders. You mentioned Benjamin Spock, who was the person best known for popularizing the notion that one should indulge children. His book, 'The Common Sense Book of Baby and Child Care', was published in 1946 and used by many of the parents of "boomers" as a guide to raising children.
It's time to drop this generational nonsense and recognize it for what it is... another tool to keep us divided and controlled.
All very good points. In the 1890s, science became an industry, and somehow it enfolded psychiatry, which is a technique more than a science. This fundamental shift in cultural philosophy created a series of rock slides that became an avalanche, and which includes Dispensationalism Christianity that developed in the wake of Scoffield. It culminated in the Boomers, who were victimized by the incredible economic boom in the US (pun intended) in the post-war era. The children of the Boom were coddled by affluent parents in the Silent Generation. The Boomers dabbled in turn-of-the-century "science-based" concepts like Marxism/Socialism, which led to rejection of Aristotelian/Platonic worldviews, and we are living with the results. I don't so much blame the Boomers, as point to that generation as a turning point in social and cultural ideals.
Yes, the parents of "boomers" benefitted from an incredible economic boom (love the pun), as did older "boomers" when they were children, however stagflation and the oil embargo cause the economy to go to hell before younger "boomers" even graduated from high school. (The youngest boomers turned 18 in 1982.)
According to some sources, just 26% of "boomers" went to college. (That's went to college, not earned a degree.) For the most part, those were the "boomers" who dabbled in Marxism/Socialism, although their numbers also included those who "went back to the land", learned the old skills such as blacksmithing or woodwork and tried to become self-sufficient. Most went straight from high school to the workforce, doing what they could to make enough money to pay their bills. A few simply wanted to make enough money to get high.
Also, if you look at the people behind those social and cultural ideas that came to dominate the 60s and 70s, you'll find that most of them weren't "boomers" either. Take the Chicago 7, for example. They were all too old to be "boomers".
Nice commentary Mr. farside. Unfortunately, all those "adults" who never "growed" up are running this western world into the ground.. Wanted to add to some of the discussion down below also. My first paying job--about 12 years old --was digging outhouse holes for 50 cents a foot which my digging partner and I split. Was nice to walk into town with real money in my pocket. Started working in an appliance store as a stock boy after school, Saturdays and full time summers at 14, and haven't really quit working ever since--just doing different stuff now. I'm an early Boomer (1946) but I did raise my 4 daughters to become responsible adults--even the ones divorce removed from my direct control. They all worked after school jobs as early as the law at that time allowed, all graduated college, and all have good paying, responsible careers. Think the grand kids are going to turn out OK, also but the jury is still out on that.
Those hay bales are getting heavier all the time--find it a struggle to stack 4 of them these days, and those feed sacks seem to be way more than 50 lbs. 30 years ago, I never had any problem with a 70lb sac of masonry cement. Have not yet had the experience of a snake in a bale, but one time my yard dogs were spending an awful lot of time poking around on a round bale. Investigation turned up a rotting rib cage--too big for a rabbit ---of some critter that managed to get baled up with the hay.
Too old to just pack up and move, so I'll just try to ride out the coming "trying" times the best I can, staying close to the "ranch" and keeping the ammunition dry.
There's a clear theme of work going on here. Those of us with clear headed thinking all started working early on, and haven't quit. Even the laws prevent young folks from getting to work as soon as they should. Girls are told its demeaning to manage a household. boys are told they need to be squishy and emotional. None of them spend time outdoors. We left the house at sun up and came home when the street lights came on. Kids now vegetate in front of their screens, have no imaginations, and haven't learned basic survival skills.
It seems the Western world is heading directly to a mass clean up. The soft, stupid ones will go fast, and the ones left over will carry on society, hopefully wiser and stronger.
I'm afraid that you are right about that. I'm one to give the grandkids books for Bdays and Christmas, and since I refuse to give that Bezos guy any more of my money, I shop at a wonderful little Mom and Pop book store in the near by county seat. Well mostly Mom, since Pop is a fireman--I call her my favorite little bookie, and so far she has found every strange request I could come up with. Anyway, I do hope they read what I send, and spend a little time away from those screens, but then, what do I know??
Mine is really short. After she'd made it clear that she would never clean her own messes again, having cockroach infested a house, I made it clear that she was leasing or the cockroaches were leaving (a subsequent mobile home) and she chose the former. The cockroaches left after she stopped encouraging them. Having children with her might have led to her demise, my not letting her mess up another generation.
Not all Boomers, but there are plenty that ruined it for all of us. I'm a Cusper. My folks were WW2/Depression, but many of my peers' folks were Korea/Vietnam. So I'm either thee last of the Boomers or the first of the Xers. Never have figured that out.
My friend, Rick, worked at the company that made barcodes in north Seattle. Barcodes changed sales from analog to digital.
Yes, there are two kinds of people. I know that it is cliche to say such a thing, but with children it is true. Either a person has kids or they don't. The divide between the two groups is as wide as the Grand Canyon. I consider those who don't have children as overgrown children themselves. They can't understand me at all. My current wife hasn't had children. She doesn't understand my children or how I deal with the two kids in their forties now. And my kids don't have children so they are like my wife, overgrown children in many ways.
Now, the childless out there will say, "That's harsh. I'm an adult. I pay my way and my taxes." Sure you do, but you don't get it. You don't understand the whole catastrophe of life, as Zorba the Greek would say. And that is a shame. You missed out.
Getting a dog doesn't count. No pet can ever substitute for having every last nerve ripped to shreds, while keeping your temper in check. Raising kids is a badge of honor. Surviving the experience earns wisdom and respect.
I was trying to make a metaphor between constantly moving lines in the sand making barcodes. Don't think it worked as well on phosphors as it did in my head.
Rufus, I see people walking their dogs in baby strollers here in town and I want to yell at them, "That's a dog! It's not a baby! Do you have a diaper on that animal? Does the dog wake you up crying in the night? Has the dog made the neighbor dog pregnant and you have to raise the puppies? Has your dog wrecked your car?"
I actually knew a couple that put diapers on their cocker spaniel. Ugh! A man becomes a man about 2 weeks into fatherhood. You can see the moment in his eyes, when he can keep them open long enough to look for it. It all starts with that first diaper and the green ooze.
This is bullshit. I'm a Gen X parent and plenty of my peers aren't any more adult than the childless ones. The ones who went along with participation trophies and trying to be "friends" with their kids ruined them. The whole family is emotionally stunted. What makes an adult is understanding how the world works and accepting the responsibility. Being effectively day care for children that in their minds are ultimately wards of the state doesn't make them parents. They happily comply with the dozens of shots they pumped in their kids from the moment it entered the world, don't think twice about subjecting them to mind numbing propaganda of state schools. They don't really want to raise their kids, they go through the motions because their genes tell them to reproduce. I like to think I had a strong enough will to survive to adulthood and tried to raise my kids to have a genuine will, too. This is different from being hardheaded and it shows. But it took extra effort because fundamentally broken society actively judged us each time we need to see the pediatrician or told someone we home schooled. Thus, I've met lots of people who didn't have children and probably would not be my first choice to babysit but I found other experience and knowledge they had in life engaging and worth exposing to my kids and myself. There's other worthwhile tests you may encounter in life besides parenthood. One example would be combat vets. The blank stare some have puts to shame any 3AM sick kid stories I might offer. Same with the horrors some paramedics or cops might have seen. But it's not just trauma, I've some musicians who have an inner something that drives them that is just so strong and core. I'm not sure they can explain exactly why but being exposed to that singular absolute need to play music is educational but it also often makes them very poor parents.
You've got some excellent points. The combat stare is hard to argue with. Western life has become too sterile. No one has to deal with the consequences of their choices. They just hit reset and keep going in their padded cell lives.
Terry, I don't even know what "Gen X parent" means. Having kids means you raise them. A mother who gives up their baby for adoption isn't a parent. Same for those who sell their babies. You have to raise children to be a parent.
As for your combat vets...they all volunteered for the military. IMO, they flunked the adult test.
Hard times make strong men....strong men make good times...good times make weak men...weak men make hard times....Guess where we are? Pax
I guess I'm a man out of time...an anarchical anachronist.
Roger, The saying is flawed. I grew up in the good times of the 1960s, but I started working as a paperboy at 13. I was an altar boy, too. Getting up before dawn 7 days a week and pedaling my bike on my paper route, then going to school and serving Mass, made me tough. Good times are not necessarily the maker of weak men.
I was a weekend pump monkey selling motorcycle tires during the week, and serving 5 masses every Sunday as an altar boy. Then there was bucking hay, feeding chickens, herding cows, while being class president and editor in chief of the newspaper. I was exhausted after high school, so I backpacked around the world to relax. :0 Did I mention walking 20 miles to school uphill both ways? And all we had to eat was ROCKS!
Rufus, LOL at "pump monkey". Hard to believe you were class president. You were a people person? Haha. I bucked hay once in South Dakota. A farmer hired my friend Mark and I to help him load the hay bales onto a flat bed truck. Jayzus, those bales are heavy! I can still see Mark in his jeans, flannel shirt, and long hair in a ponytail, lift a bale up to his waist. A rattlesnake stuck its head out of the bale and was ready to strike Mark right in the balls. Mark feinted dead away.
The farmer came over and cut the head off of the snake with a machete. He threw water on Mark's face and told us to get back to work.
I didn't ask for greatness, it was thrust upon me. I am a misanthrope who's learned to cope. I think I was elected because I was the only redhead in a hundred mile radius, and I knew Roger's Rules of Order.
Bucking coastal bermuda bales isn't bad, but the straw! I had micro scratches up to my arm pits that burned for days after. I also had to mow the back 40 (literally). After four hours of that, I was burned to a crisp and had thousands of cockle burrs, the big fat ones, from the back of my head to my belt. But rattlers? Noever had one come out of a bale at me, but did get skunked once. You ain't lived until you've taken a tomato juice bath and the yellow stains won't go away for a month.
Rufus, Oh, Lord, I'd forgotten the straw getting everywhere. My Dad worked at a veterinarian's office when he was a teenager in Minneapolis. Dad had a pet skunk named Oscar. Dad had removed the skunk's stink glands. Dad would drive around Richfield with that skunk on the front seat. The skunk would see a dog in the car next door and do his dance and raise his tail at the dog. The dog went ape shit in the next car. Dad laughed at that. He had the same sense of humor I have.
We have a skunk that comes by our house every month or so to eat the oranges in our tree. He's a friendly guy, but he does stink and you know when he's around.
Look at society in general....are you saying the people of today are no different than in the 1960s? I beg to differ,,,we are a weak people who are not prepared for what is coming. Pax
Roger, I only know myself. "Society in general" is a phrase I avoid. I've had young men in our house installing and maintaining HVAC, electrical, and plumbing systems. They know what they are doing.
You’re discussing a very small subset of the general population….when expanded in scope my observation is accurate.
Oh, Western folks, particularly men, are softer and less skilled in general life hacks - basic car maintenance, home repairs, carpentry, general wiring, etc. They can play the snot out of video games, but are clueless about tool use. In fact, I know very few "men" anymore who have a basic set of tools and know how to use them. Useless as black mold.
Regarding: "In the first round of Marxist numbnuttery, the Boomers threw out the old wisdom, thinking they could create a paradise of indulgence."
Once again, "boomers" are being blamed for changes that were initiated by their elders. You mentioned Benjamin Spock, who was the person best known for popularizing the notion that one should indulge children. His book, 'The Common Sense Book of Baby and Child Care', was published in 1946 and used by many of the parents of "boomers" as a guide to raising children.
It's time to drop this generational nonsense and recognize it for what it is... another tool to keep us divided and controlled.
All very good points. In the 1890s, science became an industry, and somehow it enfolded psychiatry, which is a technique more than a science. This fundamental shift in cultural philosophy created a series of rock slides that became an avalanche, and which includes Dispensationalism Christianity that developed in the wake of Scoffield. It culminated in the Boomers, who were victimized by the incredible economic boom in the US (pun intended) in the post-war era. The children of the Boom were coddled by affluent parents in the Silent Generation. The Boomers dabbled in turn-of-the-century "science-based" concepts like Marxism/Socialism, which led to rejection of Aristotelian/Platonic worldviews, and we are living with the results. I don't so much blame the Boomers, as point to that generation as a turning point in social and cultural ideals.
Yes, the parents of "boomers" benefitted from an incredible economic boom (love the pun), as did older "boomers" when they were children, however stagflation and the oil embargo cause the economy to go to hell before younger "boomers" even graduated from high school. (The youngest boomers turned 18 in 1982.)
According to some sources, just 26% of "boomers" went to college. (That's went to college, not earned a degree.) For the most part, those were the "boomers" who dabbled in Marxism/Socialism, although their numbers also included those who "went back to the land", learned the old skills such as blacksmithing or woodwork and tried to become self-sufficient. Most went straight from high school to the workforce, doing what they could to make enough money to pay their bills. A few simply wanted to make enough money to get high.
Also, if you look at the people behind those social and cultural ideas that came to dominate the 60s and 70s, you'll find that most of them weren't "boomers" either. Take the Chicago 7, for example. They were all too old to be "boomers".
Civilization lies in self-governance not dominion over others.
BINGO! Nuff sed
Nice commentary Mr. farside. Unfortunately, all those "adults" who never "growed" up are running this western world into the ground.. Wanted to add to some of the discussion down below also. My first paying job--about 12 years old --was digging outhouse holes for 50 cents a foot which my digging partner and I split. Was nice to walk into town with real money in my pocket. Started working in an appliance store as a stock boy after school, Saturdays and full time summers at 14, and haven't really quit working ever since--just doing different stuff now. I'm an early Boomer (1946) but I did raise my 4 daughters to become responsible adults--even the ones divorce removed from my direct control. They all worked after school jobs as early as the law at that time allowed, all graduated college, and all have good paying, responsible careers. Think the grand kids are going to turn out OK, also but the jury is still out on that.
Those hay bales are getting heavier all the time--find it a struggle to stack 4 of them these days, and those feed sacks seem to be way more than 50 lbs. 30 years ago, I never had any problem with a 70lb sac of masonry cement. Have not yet had the experience of a snake in a bale, but one time my yard dogs were spending an awful lot of time poking around on a round bale. Investigation turned up a rotting rib cage--too big for a rabbit ---of some critter that managed to get baled up with the hay.
Too old to just pack up and move, so I'll just try to ride out the coming "trying" times the best I can, staying close to the "ranch" and keeping the ammunition dry.
There's a clear theme of work going on here. Those of us with clear headed thinking all started working early on, and haven't quit. Even the laws prevent young folks from getting to work as soon as they should. Girls are told its demeaning to manage a household. boys are told they need to be squishy and emotional. None of them spend time outdoors. We left the house at sun up and came home when the street lights came on. Kids now vegetate in front of their screens, have no imaginations, and haven't learned basic survival skills.
It seems the Western world is heading directly to a mass clean up. The soft, stupid ones will go fast, and the ones left over will carry on society, hopefully wiser and stronger.
I'm afraid that you are right about that. I'm one to give the grandkids books for Bdays and Christmas, and since I refuse to give that Bezos guy any more of my money, I shop at a wonderful little Mom and Pop book store in the near by county seat. Well mostly Mom, since Pop is a fireman--I call her my favorite little bookie, and so far she has found every strange request I could come up with. Anyway, I do hope they read what I send, and spend a little time away from those screens, but then, what do I know??
Gee, I thought I was a "childless hedonist" because I refused to be my Jekyll and Hyde wife's butler for life.
If you want to get into ex-wife stories, this could turn into a very frightening thread.
Mine is really short. After she'd made it clear that she would never clean her own messes again, having cockroach infested a house, I made it clear that she was leasing or the cockroaches were leaving (a subsequent mobile home) and she chose the former. The cockroaches left after she stopped encouraging them. Having children with her might have led to her demise, my not letting her mess up another generation.
The way you talk, I wish I wasn't a Boomer! :) But you are right. Again.
Not all Boomers, but there are plenty that ruined it for all of us. I'm a Cusper. My folks were WW2/Depression, but many of my peers' folks were Korea/Vietnam. So I'm either thee last of the Boomers or the first of the Xers. Never have figured that out.
Thanks for stopping by!
My friend, Rick, worked at the company that made barcodes in north Seattle. Barcodes changed sales from analog to digital.
Yes, there are two kinds of people. I know that it is cliche to say such a thing, but with children it is true. Either a person has kids or they don't. The divide between the two groups is as wide as the Grand Canyon. I consider those who don't have children as overgrown children themselves. They can't understand me at all. My current wife hasn't had children. She doesn't understand my children or how I deal with the two kids in their forties now. And my kids don't have children so they are like my wife, overgrown children in many ways.
Now, the childless out there will say, "That's harsh. I'm an adult. I pay my way and my taxes." Sure you do, but you don't get it. You don't understand the whole catastrophe of life, as Zorba the Greek would say. And that is a shame. You missed out.
Getting a dog doesn't count. No pet can ever substitute for having every last nerve ripped to shreds, while keeping your temper in check. Raising kids is a badge of honor. Surviving the experience earns wisdom and respect.
I was trying to make a metaphor between constantly moving lines in the sand making barcodes. Don't think it worked as well on phosphors as it did in my head.
Rufus, I see people walking their dogs in baby strollers here in town and I want to yell at them, "That's a dog! It's not a baby! Do you have a diaper on that animal? Does the dog wake you up crying in the night? Has the dog made the neighbor dog pregnant and you have to raise the puppies? Has your dog wrecked your car?"
Drives me nuts.
I actually knew a couple that put diapers on their cocker spaniel. Ugh! A man becomes a man about 2 weeks into fatherhood. You can see the moment in his eyes, when he can keep them open long enough to look for it. It all starts with that first diaper and the green ooze.
Rufus, At one diaper change, I asked my first wife, "What do you feed this kid? Road kill?"
This is bullshit. I'm a Gen X parent and plenty of my peers aren't any more adult than the childless ones. The ones who went along with participation trophies and trying to be "friends" with their kids ruined them. The whole family is emotionally stunted. What makes an adult is understanding how the world works and accepting the responsibility. Being effectively day care for children that in their minds are ultimately wards of the state doesn't make them parents. They happily comply with the dozens of shots they pumped in their kids from the moment it entered the world, don't think twice about subjecting them to mind numbing propaganda of state schools. They don't really want to raise their kids, they go through the motions because their genes tell them to reproduce. I like to think I had a strong enough will to survive to adulthood and tried to raise my kids to have a genuine will, too. This is different from being hardheaded and it shows. But it took extra effort because fundamentally broken society actively judged us each time we need to see the pediatrician or told someone we home schooled. Thus, I've met lots of people who didn't have children and probably would not be my first choice to babysit but I found other experience and knowledge they had in life engaging and worth exposing to my kids and myself. There's other worthwhile tests you may encounter in life besides parenthood. One example would be combat vets. The blank stare some have puts to shame any 3AM sick kid stories I might offer. Same with the horrors some paramedics or cops might have seen. But it's not just trauma, I've some musicians who have an inner something that drives them that is just so strong and core. I'm not sure they can explain exactly why but being exposed to that singular absolute need to play music is educational but it also often makes them very poor parents.
Stop making sense!
You've got some excellent points. The combat stare is hard to argue with. Western life has become too sterile. No one has to deal with the consequences of their choices. They just hit reset and keep going in their padded cell lives.
Cheers! Good stuff to ponder.
Terry, I don't even know what "Gen X parent" means. Having kids means you raise them. A mother who gives up their baby for adoption isn't a parent. Same for those who sell their babies. You have to raise children to be a parent.
As for your combat vets...they all volunteered for the military. IMO, they flunked the adult test.